Esoteric Online

Getting closer, or maybe further away...

Now know that these are my words, and I take full responsibility for them.
Also know that this is a work in progress, and all I have are my experiences and observations as such.
This what I must speak.

These are my questions/issues.
Be warned, there is no censorship:

Spiritual initiations - I follow the regiment of practices and once completed, I am bestowed a grade/title of competence. Thanks. What next?
*This seems to me to be an evolution of control. Meet the new 'grade'ed school, of spiritual growth.

God forms - Learn the history and social tendencies of the people that worshiped said 'god'. Connect with the context of thought of the worshippers so you may learn more about the deity and eventually yourself.
*Cool, but that god form is tainted by the limitations of those who worshipped it. And let's be frank here, if you are subjugated to worshipping deities, you lack. You are of a scarcity mindset. I'd rather not connect to that mask or add more corners to the maze.

Grimoires - You have problem, I have elixir.
*Don't mind the mercury, and lets ignore the problem. The solution is outside right? Where's that damn dragon blood?

Lineage - Our rules represent the most divine of teachings. These teachings have transmitted to us by the ascendant ones. These teachings are truth from above.
*How much is the subscription? Which group did you splinter off from? How many members do you have doing the same ritual set, bringing energy to the form you charged me for, and ultimately proving the very concept you prophesized. Well I paid for it, figuratively and literally.


These are four issues I have with the general landscape of spirituality.
And these are patterns that can be observed in everyday life, from the professional life, to the home life.

One word, separation.

If it can be separated from the whole (the individual), then it can be monetized.
Currency, attention, time, choose your method of transaction.

I will make the argument that everything you need for growth of any kind, is already around you. Its there for you to experience. The universe provided it to you.

I would caution all when deciding which "path", "school", or "theology" to follow.
Know that there is something outside of these "frameworks" that turned your head to look for them in the first place.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to go back and understand what it was that brought you to the doorstep to begin with?

The framework is there for support.
Do not let it turn into a more divine jail cell.


The Individual Is Paramount
As Within So Without

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Comment by Dean on January 17, 2019 at 1:58am

Alright ... I dont have anything more to say..

This says it all and i quote 

"(and I will drop names too, but they are of men, humans, thinkers, not gods)"

Rofl..So what you saying is 2 things..You will believe a human over a god..and 2..you believe that in paths such as yoga, christianity,bhuddism,tao..etc etc. are from Gods and not humans..

There no wonder you got no trust in it, .. or maybe its not trust thats the issue..  who knows.. but either way im sure Rodney will know..he is after all highly qaulified in the field of spirituality..

If you want the truth go straight to the enlightened ones..a reference made by a scientist on consciousness..is like a baseball player giving his opinion on rocket science...

Such a mans view and experience cannot compare to the perception of the fully fledged yogi..This is rather obvious is you compare what is involved... like we spoke earlier about how you need to do certain actions to have certain results..Look for answers from such people only..dont waste much time considering the opinions of scientists..

Comment by Chris Kelley on January 16, 2019 at 9:03pm

Alright, I'm drowning in a sea of words here. Two things, I will state in this last response:

1. I feel that because I question that which has been accepted, doesn't mean that either is wrong.

2. A quote, from Rodney Collin's book "The Theory of Conscious Harmony" (and I will drop names too, but they are of men, humans, thinkers, not gods). Rodney was a student of P. D. Ouspensky.
Page 6, and I quote:
"One has to form within oneself one's own judgement of the esoteric. Ouspensky himself always told us: 'You must not believe me. Observe. Prove or disprove what I say. You must come to your own conclusions.'
Easy acceptance on the one hand or negative argument on the other are equally resistant obstacles, each belonging to different types of people".

The Individual Is Paramount

As Within So Without

Comment by Dean on January 16, 2019 at 12:51am

You not seeing the point..its not about whose tools are they..its about cause and effect..you want to keep the thorns then do so..Also giving up things may seem painful to the ego or to all the saparated sons of God..even tho this is anything but true..babies scream and rage if you take away a knife or gun even well they very well may harm themselves if you do not..

In this sense you are still a baby and would most likely decide on what would hurt you most..

Also giving up things needs some clarification..as I have seen everything is in motion..nothing is stagnant.. So you need to do the actions that raise you up and not bring you down..

It is good to question yes..you doing a great job.. Giving up all is what you do in meditation..well thats one of the side effects.. yet only therein can un attached bliss be found..

SO one must decide for themselves when the last judgement takes place..it is your own judgement of your own creation..If you are happy with your current trajectory then by all means keep the thorns..

But if you want to rise above the play of maya..then the techniques are the only way.. So it depends on the individual..not all all ready to walk away from the game.. but those who are sick of the game because they know its a play on the mind.. they go beyond it..into eternity..into nothingness.. they are everything and they are nothing..ONLY because they do not identify with anything ..they are what they are.. 

You think somebody is going to reach that by subjecting themselves to pain? Playing in the midst of ignorance is okay if you are a gentile.. but we are striving to go beyond that.. lets leave the self pitty and the delusional mind games of the world ..lets get onto the path without delay..thats my way..

The mind will always run towards what it thinks it can get pleasure from or validation.. First thing in the morning..its tea/coffee..sex..games..reading the news? How few dedicate themselves to the inward path..it is boring for them..they do not know what they missing..

They have not had enough of the delusions..but there time will come..as will everyones..in this life or the next.

Comment by Chris Kelley on January 14, 2019 at 9:37pm

Let's bring this back to the original motivation of the post. While there is a lot of which you stated I agree with, know that I will always question.
I will question any and all accepted frameworks of spiritual growth.
My questioning of accepted forced forms of religion is what started me on this path to begin with.
I will continue to question, and I will especially question the process.
THIS is my stubborness.
This does not mean I don't do the work.
But I will question all who appear to be interested in the process.

Ultimately it is MY process. All thorns are mine!
Mine to release or mine to sharpen.

I will also question also the act of "giving up" all things.
I understand the "releasing" of control from other "things", but to give up all, doesn't make sense to me.
We are earthly beings. Everyting around us is an oppurtunity to interact, to expericence, and to hopefully create.
Why "give" that up?
I would say embrace it! Embrace all of it!
But keep the observer/witness free of control, free of chains to these things.

To create means accepting the possibility of failure, catastrophe.
Pain, loss. Why give this process up?
There will be happiness and abundence on the other end.
This is nature. To "give" it up and move to another town (level of consciousness), well you'll probably see the same dichotomy.

I should remain here, and get everything out of these experiences I can and give thanks for this wild and crazy world. Not run from it.

Fundamentally what I argue is not about the "tools" themselves but more so:
Whose tools are they, and what exactly are they being used on.
At every level, whether it be in the temple, in dreams, in everyday relationships, in every waking thought and emotion.
I will question...

Comment by Dean on January 14, 2019 at 2:19am

That would depend on which thorn..like i say its all about cause and effect..if you want to manifest certain changes in yourself..you will have to see which techniques best suite your character and apply them..that is a thorn..being stubborn is not a good thorn to have.. 

Lets say somebody is very greedy..and fat..bio photons at an all time low.. The thorns to that person would be bad diet and unhealthy beliefs..laziness.. so those thorns can be replaced with excersize and healthy eating.. so the new thorns would be jogging,yoga,juicing etc.. After the good habbits are adopted the old ones will fall away if they last long enough.

Then only after the results are seen can one consider giving up ALL thorns.. The question is this..are you willing to do anything for spiritual advancement or do you think it will be given to you for free?

If you are of the mindset its for free..then why bother with techniques..Just walk around all day and imagine you on a high level..thats what the new agers do.

The new age people all believe the same bs stories that at the end of the day render them useless in terms of actually making progress..lol so it is the same with anything..if there is no action or effort to plant the seed and water it..how can you expect fruit? So you will have to decide , if you think you can in one life invent your own path and it will lead you to the same levels as jesus..be my guess ..once you have done that we can talk.. otherwise until then im telling you its best to adopt a few techniques and use them well..You see if you really interested in the truth or ascension you will do what it takes..

Its not about following a guru or idolising..its soley about getting somewhere..If there is no surrender to the process..there can be no gains on the path.. so if you dont change eating habbits..if you dont stop wasting sexual energy..if you dont stop seeking pleasures of the 5 senses for a sense of temporary existsance..if you dont use breathing techniques, or practice purification in the form of seeing the God in all and helping all without labels and attachments..if you dont do these type of things..nothing will ever happen.

The spiritual path is basically going from the gross to the suttle...Due to how this human machanism is made..there are only a few ways to do it..only the fortunate and the blessed find it out..

like the bible says "only the pure at heart shall see God"..That is a fact..if you do not purify and get this machanism -body- in tip top shape it cant be a a light.. The body can be compared to an oil lamp..

The oil is the fuel to be burned( the desire for liberation)..without proper oxygen(breathing techniques) the flame will not burn..

And so we find in the new age a bunch of people who have no real desire to burn..so there flames are dimm and powerless..easily blown out by a gentle breeze..you seen this too..people meditate or try too for 2 weeks and give it up..they say nothing happened to them..So these types of peoples havent got the balls to dedicate themselves and instead try to create a bunch of stories to justify their own stance that enlightenment is for free and no effort is needed..even tho everything in the universe , the material especially is cause and effect = in motion..there is othing stagnant here..

Comment by Chris Kelley on January 12, 2019 at 6:27pm

Interesting, so one could say that my passion for identifying and pushing myself away from these "concepts" is just me replacing one thorn with another?

Comment by Dean on January 12, 2019 at 3:13am

Yes I get what you saying...do not mistake the path as the ultimate goal..in yoga..at the end even the desire for liberation must be given up..it is also a thorn..but to the beginner who cannot remove all the thorns at once..it is better another thorn be added to replace the old thorn..at the end of the day both thorns can be removed..

Comment by Chris Kelley on January 11, 2019 at 9:55pm

Awesome! Thanks Dean. What I am trying to convey in this post is to not abandon logic for the sake of emotional fulfillment, purely. I agree with your metaphor of repairing a car without a manual. 
But I argue that one should be wary of the advertisements in said manuals.
And instead of constantly focusing on repairs, perhaps one should be willing to invent something new.
Again, "The framework is there for support.
Do not let it turn into a more divine jail cell."
Sorry mechanics...

Comment by Dean on January 11, 2019 at 3:26am

Out of the spirit of debating.. i would like to comment on the above..I hope you are well..

I will highlight some of your above statements and give my opinion on them and see how that goes:)

My interest is only to provide clarity not to stir up confilct although our views may be conflicting.

*You said  "Spiritual initiations - I follow the regiment of practices and once completed, I am bestowed a grade/title of competence. Thanks. What next?
*This seems to me to be an evolution of control. Meet the new 'grade'ed school, of spiritual growth." 

Now which practices are you speaking of exactly..An initiation in Yoga is a spiritual experience of divine bliss..it is given to those who cannot do it YET for themselves.. at the end of the journey of the student diciple relationship..the student is in a position in which he no longer requires the master or teacher. These techniques , eating correctly, breath work..meditation..physical postures  are not initiations but ladders..For a man would not be able to do it alone.. you go sit in the forest without knowledge tomorrow..what will you do? how will you get anywhere is my point and if you could do that..you would of by now surely?

You said "God forms - Learn the history and social tendencies of the people that worshiped said 'god'. Connect with the context of thought of the worshippers so you may learn more about the deity and eventually yourself.
*Cool, but that god form is tainted by the limitations of those who worshipped it. And let's be frank here, if you are subjugated to worshipping deities, you lack. You are of a scarcity mindset. I'd rather not connect to that mask or add more corners to the maze."

Okay so this just proves you dont know what an ishta devata is or ones own guru.. So basically lets say you pray to the image of jesus..what does jesus represent? You focus on the image in your mind ..the end result is the object and the subject dissolve and what is left? So the image of God , ones own choice can be anything..if you meditate on boundless light and love or whether you picture jesus and it means boundless light and love it makes no difference because the end result will still be boundless love and light and inclusion..the thought of and the thinker become one..Secondly no God form can be tainted if the meditator has correct understanding..not to mention it does not matter how tainted the individual is , the so called image is un effected by the meditator so it cannot be tainted ..not ever..its like you telling me that your thoughts has power of me..same thing..not possible especially for those who have attained certain states..These worshipped beings are merely role models..they create a certain feeling inside the devotee that others cannot simply phathom..

You said "Grimoires - You have problem, I have elixir.
*Don't mind the mercury, and lets ignore the problem. The solution is outside right? Where's that damn dragon blood?"

These are techniques based on metaphysical principles and cannot be thrown out the door either..Are you going to dismiss the effect of the moon cycles and the effects of gems on himans too? you may aswell..

You said "Lineage - Our rules represent the most divine of teachings. These teachings have transmitted to us by the ascendant ones. These teachings are truth from above.
*How much is the subscription? Which group did you splinter off from? How many members do you have doing the same ritual set, bringing energy to the form you charged me for, and ultimately proving the very concept you prophesized. Well I paid for it, figuratively and literally."

Now if you go back in history..everything must of had a starting point..For example yoga..it came from one person thousands of years ago..from that came different forms of the same science..because some people are more thinking type, others are more emotional..others prefer activity while others are more introverted.. So in yoga there is hatha yoga,karma yoga,bhakti yoga,jhana yoga,raja yoga..these are for different constitutions..not a marketing ploy.. 

You said "I will make the argument that everything you need for growth of any kind, is already around you. Its there for you to experience. The universe provided it to you.
I would caution all when deciding which "path", "school", or "theology" to follow.
Know that there is something outside of these "frameworks" that turned your head to look for them in the first place.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to go back and understand what it was that brought you to the doorstep to begin with?"

This is a classic mistake many make..believing that its up to them to decide and they cannot surrender to the process..it is egoism and nothing more..You saying that all we need is already around us..You know very well the world is not set up for spiritual growth yet you maintaining it is..and the answers will come from conformity? it is not true, I would advise that you get onto a path..or atleast adopt some techniques..If you meditate deeply or do breath work.. you will see great results..if you eat correctly you will see results..etc..so while these paths you speak of may contain different techniques they will have the same outcome based on cause and effect principles..

The problem is that people do not have the users manual of the body..how to build energy up and to be healthy etc..thats why these groupings of techniques have trasnpired into so called "paths" when merely they are cause and effect principles based on metaphysics..perfectly varifiable today even in science..How will you go deep within with no understanding? it is folly..

Its like wanting to build a car or repair it without the users manual..it will take along time and on the spirutal path it is more complex..so "paths"..cause and effect principles cannot be ignored..

The world itself will not provide a fool with a means to an end..rather his foolishness is the result of not knowing what to do..You sound like my freind..he also claims he can just simply go to the forest and boom..enlightenment..it will never work..you have a better chance of draining the ocean with a straw..

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